Katie C 3:08
Fuyou, Yuri, welcome to the Relationship Matters podcast. I am so excited to have you both on the show today. Welcome.

Yuri M. 3:18
Thank you. Katie, thank you. We have been very looking forward to this moment,

Fuyuo S 3:22
Yes, and we are so excited to be here, and thank you for inviting us.

Katie C 3:27
Well, I’m excited to lean into the wisdom of your Third Entity today as we talk about that very topic, Third Entity. I wonder if we can start by talking about your Third Entity, and how you’ve been working together over, I believe, quite a number of years.

Fuyuo S 3:47
I was wondering to when we should go back. Actually, it is, it is more than 15 years, I believe.

Yuri M. 3:57
I think each of us knew each other almost, nearly 20 years. Yes, right? When we both started coaching, and Fuyo for you, you were actually practicing coaching in your school when you were a school teacher, yes, and I’d just became independent contractor, being a professional coach and all that.

Fuyuo S 4:20
Right? And actually, when we come back to the original myth, you were my teacher, sort of. You are a workshop leader of Co-active Fundamentals, right? And I met you in the workshop room. And after that, you took ORSC and I took ORSC differently, and we gathered. When I think of the myth change of our relationship, maybe there were a couple of times the relationship shifted, I believe, but the first one I remember – it is a difficult topic to say in English. But so Katie, you might have noticed that I add chan after Yuri, yeah, so it indicates intimacy in the relationship. Instead of calling her Yuri, I call Yuri chan, yeah, yeah, but it was a bit itchy for me to call at first, and because I didn’t know that, yeah, she was my teacher at first. So it had an impact on our Third Entity, I’m not sure, but it had a big impact for me on my side, at least. What do you think?

Yuri M. 5:45
Thank you for sharing that. I never knew until now. but you are right. It was about 15 years ago that I started out with CRR Japan. And then for you all, if I call him hui. For you said yes to lead and to run this organization and the program together. And that become, that we become colleagues, not only leading the courses, or all the translation work that we did together, but also we, in a way, managed the whole company together. So our relationship, I think it’s long, and also took many roles, outer roles, inner roles.

Katie C 6:37
That really speaks about, or it speaks to the power of relationship. And I know Faith and Marita talk about this a lot, that in relationships, something’s always trying to happen. And yet, I bet 15 years back, you couldn’t imagine that you’d be running a business together and have this kind of dynamic now. And I just think that’s so exciting that every time we meet someone, we really don’t know where it could take us, right?

So I’m curious about the evolution of your Third Entity, and this is really what we’re here to talk about today – this idea of Third Entity, and how we even lead from Third Entity. And given the different roles you’ve played together and the different systems you’ve been involved with, talk to me about your Third Entity and how it initially emerged. I wonder how it evolved over the years. Big question.

Yuri M. 7:29
My goodness, where to start? Well, definitely, just like you mentioned that we had initial relationship to become colleagues, and also work partners, right? But I clearly remember the moment. I think it was about five years ago, something like that. But when we both lead together in a global setting, which means that two non-English speakers, mainly Japanese speakers, two of us as a Third Entity, lead the global call toward the global audiences. I mean the participants. And when that happens, there are some I call it. I clearly remember that the power coming from down the earth, and I feel the big power that okay, so let’s be fully authentic who we are. And it’s not about overly stating that we are Japanese, quote, unquote, but really about bringing our authentic selves and our own culture, and how could we serve for the participants, and how we could connect the authentic culture and also the ORSC program? So not trying to imitate, to become someone else, like American leaders, European leaders, but just to be who we are. So that was the very clear moment that we talk and also aware that who we are together as a Third Entity leaders.

Fuyuo S 9:10
Definitely the Japanese-ness. What we called it, was part of our DTA, I think, and we intentionally brought Japanese-ness into the field. That was our ally, I believe. And I’d like to come back to it later. But one more thing I’d like to add to what Yuri said is, in a way, it was a home away from home. That kind of environment supported us to create our Third Entity, or to make our Third Entity grow, because it was so new and so edgy for us to standing in the field of a way and we need to be more cohesive, make a stronger bond together so that we can face our participants as a Third Entity. So the environment and the participant system make our Third Entity grow, I believe, and DTA was like a life -aving rope tieing us to each other. Oh, am following. Help me. Yuri, here I am.

Katie C 10:29
That’s so interesting. There’s something about relationship that it almost allows us to step into radical authenticity. And it’s interesting how so often I think we think, oh, we need to do our work on our own as individuals. And yet, in your example there, it almost felt like you became more of yourselves as you leaned into the Third Entity that emerged out of who you were together.

Yuri M. 10:55
That’s so true, because you’re probably aware already that although both you and myself are Japanese, we are very, very different people, very different character, very different competencies, probably, and different nature. I’m very extroverted, and you’re more introverted and deep, and I’m more outspoken, and he’s maybe less speaking, but really bringing. So it’s not about individual, but we really need to be aware of who are we together. So that was the beginning of our Third Entity that we started aware of.

Fuyuo S 11:41
Yeah, beautifully said, Yuri Chan. So it reminds me of a metaphor about the Third Entity. It’s just one way of expressing it, but it’s something like a container. The stronger the container is, our authentic self can emerge out of it. It’s something like the egg chicken issue. I think.

Katie C 12:09
Yeah, there’s something about this whole topic where, in some ways, I came into this thinking it’s all about leading from Third Entity, but I didn’t think about the idea that this is also about learning from Third Entity. How relationship is such a great teacher for us, and it, in the best ways, forces us to look in the mirror and connect with who we really are. And there’s something stunning about that. And when we turn towards and keep turning towards – what we can learn and what we can release? – we could say, in ourselves but also the world at large. Have you noticed that over time? Because obviously it’s not just suddenly we meet and then that’s what our Third Entity is, and it’s set in stone. It’s always emerging and changing. And I’m curious about some of those evolutions you’ve noticed in your dynamic?

Fuyuo S 13:01
Yeah, you’re so right Katie, I think the Third Entity is something which is supposed to be cultivated in a way. So when you plant a seed and make one flower grow and that’s it. No, it’s more like a never-ending story. And in that context, you asked about the evolution of our Third Entity, one thing I remember is, yes, we came to get conflict with each other in a more natural way than before, I believe so. If the container or the ground is too soft, we cannot conflict because it is too scary on the fluffy ground, we cannot stand. But if the ground is solid, we can stand there looking into each other. We can have a conflict in a safer space. I believe, yes,

Yuri M. 14:13
Yeah, I totally agree. And I think the stance of it is like, if I see him or he see me as a kind of like function to complete the task, right, some functional machine that finishes leading the course perfectly, something like that. Then we probably can work with each other superficially or just being the perfect deliver of the content because of our nature of our work, but that does not create the Third Entity, right? So I love what you said you about how we start doing the conflict, and it’s because – it is possible because we see the other one as human beings whom we will be friends forever, so to speak. Our leading could finish in three days or our work relationship may complete in 10 years, but our relationship lasts forever, almost like lifetime, even we may not be able to see each other. Yeah, I start to get a little emotional because he’s too important in my life. So I think that stance creates big difference between how we create the Third Entity and earlier the stage that we start the organization together. And working together, I think both of us notice that that’s beautiful,

Katie C 15:59
And there’s something about how the relationship, it transcends and includes everything that you do together, and we so easily lose sight of that, don’t we? When we’re in that sort of human doing mode, we could say, and we’re task focused, and we’ve got a course to do or a client to work with, we can lose sight of the relationship. And this happens, of course, in our personal relationships as much as our professional ones. And yet here it just seems so clear that, of course, relationship transcends and includes everything that we do together. That feels like the most important thing of all.

Fuyuo S 16:37
Right. And building on that, Yuri chan, can I share a little bit more concrete example about our evolution, or maybe the something behind the scenes? Is that okay?

Yuri M. 16:53
I don’t know what you’re gonna talk about, but I fully trust you.

Fuyuo S 16:56
That’s our Third Entity. Yeah, yeah, go ahead, yeah. And actually, we didn’t have much conflict even now, actually, but some, sometimes in a co-lead, sometimes I felt that, oh, Yuri, where are you going? Why are you doing this or that kind of thing, and vice versa, that Yuri told me that, why did you send this message to me, it was too much for me now, or something like that. That could happen to anybody or any Third Entity, I believe. But more importantly, we can share the authentic self with each other, and we can open up this kind of information transparently to each other. This creates a healthier relationship, I believe. Our Third Entity gets healthier with this kind of open communication.

Katie C 17:56
Yeah, it feels very expansive and makes me think about a conversation I had with Faith around the importance of individuation and merging in relationship. And when we know someone really well, it’s very easy to think that of course you think the same. Then you realize, of course you don’t, because they have their own way of seeing the world and feeling the world. And when we really lean into that power, it means that we expand who we are, together and individually. But it’s so easy, isn’t it, to suddenly get caught by what? What are they doing? That’s not how we do it!

Fuyuo S 18:33
Yeah. So we are human, Katie. It’s quite normal,

Yuri M. 18:39
Yeah. And I think those moments are actually the gift moments that we cultivate the relationship further and understand that person deeper.

Katie C 18:51
This Third Entity uses metaphor which is so rich, and it brings this to life. And when you were talking, it made me think about that tree in the wind metaphor that gets used so often. How you’ve got that solid ground that actually you can work with the storm. You’re not going to get blown away. And in terms of that, how to practically start to build that solid ground. Because I’m sure there’s many people listening who are starting a professional or personal relationship that doesn’t feel so steady or sturdy. What are some of the things when you look back that really helped to solidify that place where you can have that constructive conflict and know that your your relationship will stay strong?

Yuri M. 19:37
Great question. Well, one of the best things which worked for both of us is really to have all kinds of conversations, Not only specifically about the task or work – I think we are like, I’m sorry to bring this metaphor, but we are sometimes like high school girls. You never be gross, but we just talk about everything, about work or about the environment, everything, but also something very painful, like our relationship challenges, or if something happened to me personally. He deeply listened to me. So there’s barely nothing that I cannot talk to Fuyuo about. So those period just have a conversation about everything, or maybe personal to each other, really helps to, I think, cultivate the Third Entity and solid ground. What do you think?

Fuyuo S 20:57
Yes, totally agree. So whether it’s high school girls talk or boys talk, it doesn’t matter. The point is, sometimes when we have a meeting, let’s say the 60-minute meeting, let’s say half of it can be that kind of chat. So how are you doing these days? What are you most passionate about these days? It’s not only chatting, but a way to get to know more about my partner or maybe vice versa. I would call it some some kind of frequency tuning in through the conversation. It’s another metaphor for me. Through the conversation, we are tuning into each other and having more harmonious or similar frequencies so that we can create an invisible container for us to create a safe space. We can say anything we need to. That’s so interesting.

Yuri M. 22:13
It’s very interesting that once these frequencies meet, and once we start to hold in the container, that container opens up and invites others to join. That becomes a safe space, not only between us, but for basically all the people who are together.

Katie C 22:40
So fascinating. It’s that sort of alignment exercise that allows you tto be that container for yourselves and other people. It makes me think how so often we’re very linear, focused, task-focused, and then we lose sight of the relationship stuff that actually is the stuff that makes everything else run smoother. I’m curious about these conversations, this chitchat at the beginning. I know that sometimes we do it, but we’re still not really connecting. In the UK, we have this habit of asking – oh, how are you doing? Yeah, I’m fine. – and it still isn’t in that relationship space, even though we’re sort of playing the part of doing that check-in. How do you make sure you’re really checking in with each other and aligning at that deeper level that you’re talking to?

Fuyuo S 23:28
Maybe this is from a different context. Katie, but I know we are taking the same supervision program right now, absolutely. And one learning for me coming out of the program is that sometimes people say the main agenda before getting into the main agenda. But how can you judge it? If your partner wants to say something really out of her or his heart that could be in the main agenda, why do you judge it as the side agenda, or off topic, whatever? The important thing is to feel into it and feel into the Third Entity, feel into your partner, and then feel what’s really needs to emerge right now in the moment. In that moment,that chatting can be the main agenda. That’s my perspective, though. What do you think, Yuri chan?

Yuri M. 24:33
Yeah, for example, like, I remember that there was one moment that we were leading together, and there was frustration in the space. In a very short time, we had to make many decisions. Our conversation didn’t land for each other, and we actually did not speak about the problem. But there was one moment that what you said to me – and that actually saved our relationship – which was “You look frustrated.” That was the main agenda. Actually, yes, I was frustrated, and then I could speak about it, and actually that was enough for us. We just aligned immediately that yeah, so let’s do it now, and after that, let’s talk about this. So sometimes the main agenda is not about something which is right there, but underneath. And once you touch upon it and acknowledge it, that becomes kind of a strong connection of Third Entity. And as a Third Entity, we can move on, and we can make decisions, we can act.

Katie C 26:01
Wow, that’s beautiful. There’s something about how I always reference this quote, and I have it on my wall, “How we live our days is how we live our lives.” And this really brings that home, that idea that maybe this chitchat, this relationship stuff, this is the stuff. And yet so often – and I think about just last night over dinner – I’m focused on we need to send out or thank-you cards as opposed to just connecting with my husband. I don’t want to get to the end of my life and have spent it focused on thank-you cards. I want to spend it on relationship. This is the stuff. But why do we, what do you think gets in the way of us focusing there? Because this is the stuff of life.

Yuri M. 26:53
And those are the things that we remember, yeah, in heart, right? Yeah, yeah. So true.

Fuyuo S 27:01
And also remembering one of our principles that the system is in a constant state of emergence, so we need to check in with each other again and again and again and again and again in the moment. Is this the stuff or not? Yeah. Do you need to speak to it now or not? Maybe that kind of mutual information would be important.

Katie C 27:31
It makes me think how, how often we marginalize voices in ourselves, but also in the systems within which we exist. A big one for me that I’ve been learning through the supervision training is judgment. I set aside judgment because that’s [being a] bad coach. Bad coach, no judgment. And yet there’s information there. Maybe if I allow it, the judgment can be the agenda, and what might we learn there? I just think there’s so much power when that becomes the agenda. When the relationship becomes the agenda, maybe we could say what’s possible.

Fuyuo S 28:11
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So right, and actually what I said, Yuri mentioned that “You look frustrated” leading. And it can sound judgmental, I think, but the point is, we had trust in each other. I believe you trusted me. My words didn’t come out of judgment. Yeah. So, yeah, that kind of alignment will be also important. I think, yeah.

Yuri M. 28:44
I think so. And also, there were some kind of sense of forgiveness always. We make mistakes, and anything can be wrong from certain perspective, right? But we trust the good intention, and also, if something wrong is going on, we still can forgive each other and then move on. If we break out, break down, that’s what is the trust. I cannot ignore the element of forgiveness for myself and for also others.

Katie C 29:25
Wow. It makes me think that when we really do this work – and your relationship is a fabulous example of it – it’s almost like a bouncy castle when there’s when there’s a challenge or something that sort of hurts a bit. There’s a softening to the way you land. And I’ve just thought of the word relationship resilience. There’s a really resilient relationship here, and maybe that’s what we should be focusing towards, as opposed to this perfect Third Entity that never has anything go wrong. It’s more about – how do we how do we come back from the challenge, and how do we hold the challenge when it’s present?

Fuyuo S 30:03
So much relating to what you have said. There is no perfect Third Entity on this planet. I believe we are not saints at all.

Yuri M. 30:15
No, not at all. And if you’re a saint, that’s boring. We don’t have to be here, really. I when we look back at what we were in my relationship, there are many, many moments that we failed, or we disappointed others, or we did not align each other, which leads us to being separated. And there are so many of that experience, but always after that, we came back again. Hey, let’s talk what happened to us, what was happening to you, and I was feeling this and this. When we come and reflect, that’s always become a huge resource of how we learn and also how we can grow from that. So just like you said, Katie, there were some moment sof challenge, but the experience of, can I say, revive? be reborn, from there, from that place? Yeah, that’s something that we are really proud of in our identity.

Fuyuo S 31:30
I really want to highlight what you have said, do not give up the relationship. The relationship is resilient. Please. Do not give it up.

Katie C 31:41
Do not give up the relationship. I think we need to underline that! And it really speaks the idea of turning towards relationship. Keep turning towards. It’s so easy, isn’t it, to turn away because it gets hard? And this work isn’t easy, and your Third Entity here speaks the power of just keep turning towards, keep turning towards. It’s stronger than we think.

Yuri M. 32:06
I really want the audience to know that I’m curious about for you, but myself, I always have the temptation of turning away, or always have temptation to burn the bridge, so to speak, and just leave. Yeah, yeah. So this is very true for me. This is intentional practice of turning toward, coming back to relationship, trusting the relationship and jump burn the bridge.

Fuyuo S 32:44
Yuri chan, I was going to say the same thing, really. I said do not give up. And I said to myself and maybe to our Third Entity as well, yeah, often I’d love to give up, just shut the door and leave. And this is good enough for me. That’s it. I’d love to say that often, and I wonder why I am doing this job or this work. Maybe this is a practice. So we call one course the Dojo course. Dojo is the practice place. Maybe this planet is a practice place for us.

Katie C 33:48
That’s beautiful. I’ve been nodding as both of you were sharing there about giving up on the relationship and I’m the same. This work is is hard, yeah, and I do believe that sometimes we’re sent the work we need the most. And so I love that idea of life being our practice ground. And it’s not about getting it right. It’s about just keeping on turning towards and showing up time and time again. That’s the relationship that we’re building, that bank account. It’s not so much about good or bad or right or wrong, we never arrive. And I think that’s why this work is so frustrating but so resilient and rewarding as well.

Yuri M. 34:32
Yes, well, we never know if it’s rewarding or not, but we will find out at the end of our day, right? Exactly? It feels like I’m signing up for this huge experiment, the possibility of relationship, and we don’t know the answer, because it’s not that perfect prescription, that this will lead us to life success or forever happiness, right? But we signed up for experimenting and challenging and really learning that what is possible. It’s the road less traveled, right? So why not us doing it?

Fuyuo S 35:18
Once, I felt really relieved to hear Marita say, “I am not evolved enough.” Humbly. I say maybe we are not evolved enough, and maybe we cannot see the fruit of this experiment in our generation. I’m wishing in the next world, the next generation can see the fruit of our experiment. It’s something like passing the torch.

Katie C 35:51
That’s beautiful, the torch of relationship. Wow. Thank you both. It’s been gorgeous dancing with your Third Entity today. This was a gorgeous discussion, and I am leaving with so much. So thank you for being your full, vulnerable and whole selves for this call. I felt like I just got so much of who you are together today.

Yuri M. 36:17
Thank you. Katie, for holding us so big. We were Third Entity. We were Third Entity,

Fuyuo S 36:23
And you inspired our system. Katie, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 36:31
A huge thanks to Yuri and Fuyou for that fascinating discussion. Here are my key takeaways, understanding the Third Entity. The Third Entity represents the relationship itself, separate from the individuals involved. By shifting the focus from me and you to us, co coaches and CO facilitators can create a shared space for creativity, trust and growth the power of intentionality. Strong relationships are built through deliberate effort, intentionally setting agreements and discussing roles, values and expectations at the start of any collaboration helps to align goals and minimize misunderstandings. Navigating differences constructively, differences in style, perspective and approach can be a source of strength rather than conflict. Embracing and addressing these differences openly create opportunities for innovation and deeper connection. Communication as the backbone. Effective communication is key to nurturing the Third Entity. This includes practicing active listening, sharing feedback respectfully and staying curious about each other’s needs and motivations. And finally, continuous maintenance of the relationship. Relationships, like any living system, require ongoing care, regular check ins, reflections and adjustments help the Third Entity evolve and stay resilient in the face of challenge. In part two, Yuri and Fuyou continue the conversation around Third Entity by exploring some of their key learnings from leaning into the power of their relationship.

For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of change makers around the world, supported by a global network of faculty and partners we connect, inspire and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. CRR Global’s unshakable belief is that relationship matters, from humanity to nature to the larger whole.