Katie Churchman (0:06):Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. From the boardroom to the living room, we believe relationship matters. Hello, I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and I’m delighted to welcome you back to season two of the Relationship Matters podcast. In the first episode of the season, Marita Fridjhon introduces the Five Principles of Relationship Systems Intelligence, or RSI. RSI has five key principles which shape what we believe, how we engage, and the place from which we come. These principles underpin all of our relationships and are therefore fundamental to everything we do as coaches, leaders, and human beings. Understanding and engaging in these principles can help us to better access and apply relationship systems intelligence with our clients, our teams, and with our families.

So without further ado, I give you Marita Fridjhon talking about the five principles of RSI.

(1:14):Well, Marita, it’s great to have you back on the show. After a little break, I’m wondering if we can talk today about the five principles, because there’s a lot going on there, and I’m sure our listeners are very keen to find out your thoughts about what these mean.

Marita Fridjhon (1:30):And we’re talking about the Five Principles of Relationship Systems Intelligence, just in case somebody is listening and they don’t get that piece. So the five principles of RSI, or relationship systems intelligence. Yeah.

Katie Churchman (1:43):Not the five principles of life. That would be a big topic for today.

Marita Fridjhon (1:48):That’s actually a great starting point, because when we talk to different people about it, so often I get the question about, well, what is a principle, and what’s the difference between principles and values? So maybe we can jump in there first before we start talking about the five principles.

Katie Churchman (2:05):Yeah. I must say, I don’t know the difference between a principle and a value. So if you can enlighten me, that would be great.

Marita Fridjhon (2:11):Yeah. Yeah. I love people asking the question, well, values are guiding beliefs. It’s personal to us as humans, and over time it might change. So values, personal values, are more changeable, but it is guiding beliefs for how we want to be in life. So for me, integrity is a huge value. It’s like, am I in integrity? Is somebody else in integrity? That’s a value piece, and it’s very personal. Other people may have other values, so values are personal guidelines. Personal. It’s often very cultural as well, and it’s changeable. Way back, I was also reading and trying to see what other people were saying about principles, and one of the best. I’m going to actually read it for you. One of the best definitions of principles is something that Stephen Covey wrote. I can’t even remember when he first said it, but he talks about principles as a natural law, like gravity. If you drop something, gravity controls. If I don’t tell you the truth, you won’t. Trust me. That’s a natural law, so you can feel how that is differently universal. It’s guiding principles of life. He also talks about we control our actions, but the consequences that flow from those actions are controlled by principles. And that’s one of the big connection points for me with what we talk about in RSI or the principles of RSI. We control the tools and skills that we will use when we do relationship systems work. But those actions, those tools and skills, actually have been guided by the principles that it is executing on. So we control our actions, we control the fact that I can drop cup of coffee or put it on the table, but gravity will have it fall on the floor. So my actions are my actions, but its impact is guided by principles. Let me stop there and just make some sense.

Katie Churchman (4:32):Yeah. So principles are bigger than us then.

Marita Fridjhon (4:34):Principles are really more closer to natural laws. And since we started doing the work 20 plus years ago, that now is known as relationship systems work, or relationship systems coaching, it really feels to me as if we are creating and have created with empirical evidence what we see in our clients and outcomes of our work, that there’s an addition that we bring to modern systems thinking that really is part enters to the different intelligences. That’s part of what we hold the five principles to be, that it really is more a guiding principle for what actually is happening in relationship systems. And from that, from that principle of what is happening and what we can anticipate is natural law, like the one that is probably the best example of that, is that systems and relationship systems are in a constant state of emergence. That’s a natural law. Nothing is static. It keeps on shifting, the new thing keeps on happening, whether it is something that’s breaking down or whether it is something that is evolving into something different or near. But emergence is. You can write a bumper sticker on that. So it’s one of the strongest ones that really help us to guide our work. Because when we work with relationship systems, whether it is with an enterprise or whether it is with a couple of, or whether it is me with myself, I need to know that that system is in emergence. It is not what it was yesterday and it is not what it will be tomorrow. So the question then is, if I think of emergence as a principle, the question then is, well, what is the emergence that is happening? And then if I can see that, then what are the tools and skills and even values that I can bring to responding to that principle?

Katie Churchman (6:46):Okay, so are you saying that whether we recognize them or not, these principles are always there in the background?

Marita Fridjhon (6:53):It’s always there. Gravity is always there. And I’ve got a coffee cup sitting right next to me. Gravity is what has me pay attention to how and where I move my hand, because that’s so immediate. When we get to some of the systemic applications and principles, it is often more hidden, but it is equally true from a natural law perspective.

Katie Churchman (7:18):So these underpin everything that we do, then essentially it does.

Marita Fridjhon (7:22):It does. And before we close out, I want to just talk about, let’s talk a little bit more about the principles. But before we close out, I just want to talk a little bit as well about, well, how do we then execute? Or if we pay attention to that principle, how do we work with it? And since we started talking about emergence already, if we just look at what’s happening in our world at the moment, there is emergence that is catastrophic, bigger than in our lifetime. When we think about the pandemic, when we think about natural disasters, when we. It’s emergence, it is happening. We are at choice what we do with it. So when we take climate change or climate crisis, it’s happening. It’s a natural law. Now, the thing that we can do is what is it that we’re going to create from it? What are the measures that we can put in place or not to be able to create from it? We can’t just rant against it. The same thing with the pandemic, the same thing with black lives matter, it’s emergence and we can’t deny it. So then we need to begin to look at, okay, what is within my ability to be able to do something, create something from it.

Katie Churchman (8:49):So is that sort of in line with the idea that the only consistent thing in our life is change, is that?

Marita Fridjhon (8:55):I think that’s another way of framing that, yes, that there is, and so often in our training and our work that is heavily influenced by Ani Mendel, when we’re talking about that, people are at an edge. It’s like that edge is created by change. Sometimes it’s something, a change that I choose to make, going to university, getting married, whatever. But other times that edge, that emergence is created by something that was not my choice. Death, fires, it’s constantly there. And change is one of the biggest principles, realities that is in existence across different modalities and learning models.

Katie Churchman (9:38):So I guess with this principle, we can either work with it, or we can spend our lives trying to fight it and not getting anywhere.

Marita Fridjhon (9:45):I think you and I spent a podcast some time earlier talking about how do I react to it and get it out of my system and then pause for long enough to be able to create something from it. So, yes, one of the other principles that we’re talking about is, and really, when we talk about relationship systems intelligence is the place where we think that from a systems view and a relationship systems view, there is a different intelligence. So when we’re talking about relationship systems intelligence, it really refers to that notion that everything that is happening to individuals or parts of the system is not only specific to or personal to that individual, it is a systemic event. That’s the definition that. That really helps us to see that when I pull on one string of anything, it touches everything. So a pandemic is really one of our best teachers in terms of systems thinking, because it impacts everybody. There’s interdependence, it’s there. That’s a whole other podcast. What the pandemic can teach us about systems thinking.

Katie Churchman (11:02):Yeah.

Marita Fridjhon (11:03):And then the other principle that we’re talking about is that each relationship has its own. The relationship itself has its own identity or personality, if you will. I was speaking to a friend the other day and said, no, but, you know, there is a definition for there is a management team, and there is an accounting team, and there is a marketing team. It’s like, those are entities, but everybody knows what they are. And I came up with an example of a metaphor of a cake. If you think of chocolate cake, tell me that every single chocolate cake that you’ve ever eaten tastes the same. Not so.

Katie Churchman (11:49):Yeah.

Marita Fridjhon (11:50):So each one of us have our own recipes. The relationship that is between you and me, as we have the conversation, that relationship has its own qualities. That’s very different from the qualities when you work with faith, maybe, or anybody else. So, again, for us, as coaches and change makers, I cannot generalize. When I look at any team or any relationship, I need to find out and really think about what’s its unique impact and its unique way of being, because it’s different from any other relationship. That’s the piece that it has its own identity, and that’s where we also need to focus and get information from.

Katie Churchman (12:34):So how is perhaps our lack of recognition of that principle particularly impacting us? Because I think about relationships, perhaps on the intimate level, and how there is this sort of Hollywood version of what romance and love means, is that perhaps impacting what people are able to experience in their own lives, for example.

Marita Fridjhon (12:53):I think so. And I think that that’s a part where we dream relationship up. And the moment we dream them up, we think we’re baking the same chocolate cake. But it has its own quirks. It has its own. Even when John Gottman talks about 69% of all relationship problems in couples are perpetual, well, they are all different. So if I think that I can leave this relationship to go to another relationship, don’t think I’m not going to have a 69% that is perpetual, because that’s a different, unique entity. It has its own personality. It’s really easy for us to see when we think about music. Orchestras can play the same symphony, a rock band can play the same music, but it’s different depending on whether it’s the London Symphony or whether it is fill in the blanks, or whether it is take any rock group. The moment they interpret it in their own style, it’s uniquely different. It’s rendered very differently. So if I don’t, if I don’t allow for that, I lose a lot of complexity that is available to us in relationship, then I dream things up.

Katie Churchman (14:18):So would you say then the relationship has huge potential to be creative? Then? If we’re comparing it to the arts.

Marita Fridjhon (14:24):That’S one of the reasons why we want to get information from the relationship itself, because it is creative.

Katie Churchman (14:30):Okay. Yeah.

Marita Fridjhon (14:30):And one of the things that is a law, a systems law, is that it’s interdependent. So to the extent that we are interdependent, there is that kind of impact piece. So, yes, yes.

Katie Churchman (14:44):So if we just recap the first three, we’ve got emergence or change constant. What was our second principle?

Marita Fridjhon (14:52):I can’t remember which one we talked about. I talked about now about the relationship system as its own unique identity. And again, I just want to say there that it’s really interesting that if we want to begin to think about the relationship system almost as an oracle, because when it’s revealed to itself, it has self correction properties. That’s the thing that you just talked about, that once it’s revealed, it will let us know what needs to happen next. So has its own unique identity and reveal it so that we can get back to the self regulating properties of that system.

Katie Churchman (15:30):I think that will be a really refreshing law or principle for people to embrace, because I think a lot of people feel like they’re doing this life on their own and they have to have all the answers. But to know that there’s something bigger sort of helping, if you let it.

Marita Fridjhon (15:43):Yes, there’s a story. At some stage way many, many years ago, faith and I had a number of couples, clients, and there was a couple that we worked with, and they finally decided to separate out, and the husband wanted to go, and the wife was just. Could not let it go. And we worked with them and worked with them, and naturally, speaking normally, couldn’t quite get anywhere. And we ended up doing what we named the Third Entity exercise, where literally we had the husband take his side, the wife takes her side from the Gestalt perspective and speak to what is happening and why they want to move. Then we had them switch places, step into the other one’s shoes and talk about that. And it was difficult, but it remained that she wants to keep it going and staying, and he wants to go. And then we had them go into that seat, or the voice of the Third Entity of the relationship between the two of them and asked them, if you speak from that place, what would you say to these two? Because they actually belong to you? And they were quiet for a really long time. And then tears begin to roll down the wife’s face. And she said, when I’m sitting in this seat, our relationship says it’s done from that place. She could see and feel something that wasn’t possible from her own position. That’s the wisdom. That’s that nature of the system itself that we want to tap into. The second one that we often talk about is that every member of the system is a voice of the system. So there’s husband’s voice, there’s wife’s voice, but everybody is an expression of the system. If you think about how can we hear, how can you listen to the system itself? One of the ways that it can express itself is through others, through the people that populate it. So we hold every expression of the system to actually be systemic. It’s a voice, it’s an expression that belongs to that relationship, to that team, that importance we see over and over. When we’re talking to, when I’m working with teams and leaders, when they can hear that, that it’s not personal, but it’s an expression of the system, then we can begin to work with it very differently.

Katie Churchman (18:15):How can we work with that, with big organizations where there’s, you know, 20,000 plus employees and they’re all voices of the system? I mean, it must be impossible for, like, the CEO to hear every single voice.

Marita Fridjhon (18:26):I think so. And I think that that’s where it’s no longer a complicated question. Just because we talk about numbers, it’s a complex question, but that’s where we need to be able to work with nested systems and nested teams so that we can begin to find out what is happening in one smaller segment. Because a thousand people, actually, if we can ask them to express what is happening in the system itself, the organization itself will have some information, but they’re not sufficiently in touch with all the other voices. That’s where we need to be able to create environments where smaller groups can be together and express and work and then report or share with other groups, maybe. But unless we can get to nested systems, we can’t work with the whole thing. So if we go continue on, then that we talked about, the naturally intelligent, creative, that’s the third one that you remembered, that it has its own propensity to once it can see itself and once it has the information, it will often indicate for us what needs to happen. And I think one of the places where leaders and coaches and change makers struggle with this one sometimes is that when there is a wildfire happening, it’s difficult for me to see the generativeness, to see how that could be something that something can get created from, because it’s at the moment after wildfires in our area, we’re surrounded by devastation. But that is my experience in this now. It’s not the metaverse of what is happening or what is trying to happen. I can see that part of what could emerge from this is the more this happens, the more the world will wake up to the fact that we need to do something about the climate crisis. We drove through some parts quite nearby us where there was devastation. And I can see what emerges is humanity at its best, where people in homes nearby that did not get vacated, that didn’t burn out, were putting things out on the street for their neighbors to be able to pick up. We could see the emergence from humanity stepping up, not fighting with one another, but helping. So it often will need a shift of view for us. We may not be able to see it now in my suffering of this now, but in the bigger picture, there is a generativity that sometimes can only emerge from breakdown.

Katie Churchman (21:11):So does systems thinking transcend time? In many ways, yes, it does.

Marita Fridjhon (21:16):I think that’s one of the challenges, is that we, as humanity in this lifetime, live in this now.

Katie Churchman (21:24):Right. Okay.

Marita Fridjhon (21:25):And I experience me personally in this now. Fortunately, unfortunately, systems are less personal than that. It’s in the bigger arc of things.

Katie Churchman (21:38):Yeah. And I guess we can see that in our own personal system, how much we change. Emergence is constant. I mean, I’m not the same as I was when I was 17 years old.

Marita Fridjhon (21:47):Exactly. It’s that piece and that creative generativity. Again, if we just think about what’s happening in the coaching and in the corporate and in our entire world as a result of the pandemic, overnight everybody became digital. Kids now are teaching their parents how to train them because the kids know more about technology than the parents do. So you can see how that kind of emergence creates different creativity and generativity.

Katie Churchman (22:20):So it does actually. Sometimes it’s almost like we need some pressure to help us to get to where we want to be.

Marita Fridjhon (22:27):Yeah, and that’s a really good segue for us into what is the fifth one then I think because we’ve danced through them and they’re iterative, they flow together. But one of the other things that leaders and team members also find very helpful sometimes is that relationship systems rely on roles for executing these functions. So if you think corporate CEOs, senior vps, again, it’s an outer role that the system is needing to execute and to move it from one place to the next. But roles actually belong to the system. It’s also not only personal. So the job description of CEO and leader is personal because I occupy it at this moment in time. The information, the creativity that needs to occupy that role that I am sitting in, that doesn’t belong to me only. It belongs to the entire team. That’s where you can see, again, the example from teachers that we just talked about is a good example where now kids are not in front of their teachers anymore. Teachers have to learn more about the digital world. Parents need to learn more about the digital world. And very often we now have the kid in the role of parent or helper because they need to teach the parent how to use Zoom. So you get that kind of that. You could see how wisdom, creativity, the things that is needed in each one of the roles, those qualities, those pieces, belongs to everybody that’s on the team. So systems rely on roles for executing of functions. And know that roles too is a systemic event. It’s open to everybody.

Katie Churchman (24:24):Yeah, it makes me think of that Shakespeare quote, all the world’s a stage and all the men and women are merely players. It feels like we’re just like players playing a part, but it’s not necessarily who we are. It’s just a moment in time.

Marita Fridjhon (24:35):And it actually is that point where I hold that privilege to myself. That’s when I think mishandling of things happens.

Katie Churchman (24:47):How can we separate out some of these roles from our identity?

Marita Fridjhon (24:52):That’s a really good question. Our own profiles, our own whatever test you want to take, whether it’s strength finder or the why or whatever test you want to take, our profiles very often set us up for, and I don’t mean it in a bad way, but qualifies us to predominantly occupy certain roles. So there’s not only the outer role of the job description, but there’s also the inner roles of peacemaker or troubles disturber. And you can see how my own personality and my own profile shapes me in the direction of occupying certain outer roles, but also certain inner roles. I can be the one that somebody could be the one that first gets up to create the conflict that probably has to do with his or her personality. But conflict, that role of conflict is systemic. So one of the ways to work with it is to have that person that usually goes there, to have that person vacated and let somebody else go and be the disturber, speak from there, because otherwise we keep on locking one another in the same role, and it actually belongs to the system. So I can’t remember whether it’s Daniel Pink or somebody that said, you can fire the person, but you can’t fire the role. That’s interesting, because that what the role is bringing us, that’s systemic.

Katie Churchman (26:22):Yeah, you’re right. I’ve had an experience of this, actually, in my relationship with my husband. So, as you know, I used to be an actress and I did a lot of musical theatre, and he just wasn’t interested at all. I left the industry and didn’t touch musical theatre for a while. And then suddenly, out of nowhere, sort of seven years into our relationship, my husband’s becoming obsessed with Hamilton and all these musicals. And it’s almost like the relationship wanted and needed that, but it wasn’t coming from me anymore.

Marita Fridjhon (26:52):Yes, yes. That’s a really good example. That’s a role. That kind of creativity and expression actually is a role that your relationship needs, and you stepped into it because that’s how you got shaped in your education, in your life, and whatever. And it’s like, nah, I’m done with that one now. But that role then became vacant, and it is. So there’s something about. Can you see how that’s one of the things that makes your Third Entity uniquely different?

Katie Churchman (27:23):Yeah. And I realized, like, there must be so many parts of relationship. Oh. Because they’re that kind of person, they’re the musical one. Then it takes away from you being that in some way.

Marita Fridjhon (27:33):That’s right, that’s right. So, you know, one of the things that we often talk about, and it’s a little bit California woo woo, is that we often get dreamt. We think we make the choices, but we get dreamt into situations for our own evolution. So there’s a wonderful saying, I think it’s a tribal saying that talks about, I thought I was planning, and all the while I was blown across the sky by a great wind. So you thought you planned this relationship. All the while there was an emergence and an evolution of you and him that needed to happen, that was uniquely available in this Third Entity, and that makes you the unique Third Entity that is the different oracle to the world at the moment.

Katie Churchman (28:26):So if we can’t plan and we’re just blown, how can we, like, be blown a bit gracefully or with some sort?

Marita Fridjhon (28:32):Well, it’s interesting. One of the things that we say is that leaders and good relationship systems workers can see the system. And when you asked that question, when I was looking at you, you started weaving and bobbing in your chair. You did this. That’s how. Dance with it, be agile with it. So again, you can see how for you, because the moment that question came out, that’s what you did.

Katie Churchman (29:03):Yeah.

Marita Fridjhon (29:04):And that is one of the ways that you probably will best meet it. Dancing, moving metaphorically. I don’t know what it means in reality. It may well mean that it’s dancing and moving as well, but that’s the piece. So to the extent that we can really train ourselves to see what the movement is around us, because people do that all the time. We call it signals. And when we’re talking about the other thing we need to be able to do is we need to be able to hear the system. So when we’re talking about everybody as a voice of the system, that’s how we listen, that’s how we hear. And the third thing that we need to do in order to execute on these is to be sensing the system. And that’s sort of a little bit in the emotional field. What’s happening? Are we getting bored now? Time for us to stop. That’s sensing what’s happening. So, you know, the final piece is that we started talking about principles and we can begin to be aware of and really have more awareness of these, then we can begin to be much more deliberate with what are the tools and what are the skills that we can respond with? That’s. So many of your questions was exactly about that. What are the tools and skills that we can respond with to this principle. And that’s part of what creates the competencies that makes us changemakers and can make the world change makers.

Katie Churchman (30:31):You know, Marita, I remember when I first walked into this work, someone saying, it’s like the Matrix. You can’t go back. Do you have a sense of the difference between before and after? Seeing as you’ve seen so many people go through this process, what’s the world with a system’s lens compared to before?

Marita Fridjhon (30:47):I think it feels in this now, it feels more chaotic. It feels as if different emergences have become emergencies. And I think humanity is still, I think we’re still trying to catch up. And I think that some of the examples that we’re talking about is there’s a way in which we are exponentially shifted forward in terms of what is happening with technology and doing virtual work. And so that seems to be a catch up. So at the moment, I think we all are, if we really think about it, we are sitting in the waiting of what is it that needs to. To happen? What is it that we need to do with this emergence that there are so many of. I mean, we just touched on a few, but I think there’s. And I think that if I were to. Nobody has advice at the moment, but I think that all of us need to become very clear about from my unique identity and from the unique identity of those that I surround myself with, what is the contribution that we need to bring to create from any one of these? We can’t solve all of it. We certainly can’t solve all of it all the time. But I think we can have integrity in looking at what’s mine to do and what’s ours to do and choose, because some things might have to stay behind. That’s not yours to do.

Katie Churchman (32:26):I’m really glad you said that because I think this work isn’t easy, is it? It’s not just seeing rainbows and butterflies. It’s actually really quite hard sometimes seeing your system, your family system, your work, and seeing it for what it really is. And it gives you the power to choose. Right. The power to choose your response.

Marita Fridjhon (32:46):Yeah. And at the same time, you know, really continue to mind the gap between who I think I am and how other people perceive me.

Katie Churchman (32:54):Yeah, yeah. It’s a lifetime of work, isn’t it?

Marita Fridjhon (32:59):I actually think that that’s one of the reasons why we choose to go into relationships, because I can’t get to know myself by myself.

Katie Churchman (33:06):Yeah. Yeah. So we always need the system in order to see ourselves better.

Marita Fridjhon (33:11):Yep. Yep. For it to tell us about it, and sometimes we like it and sometimes we don’t.

Katie Churchman (33:16):That’s very true.

Marita Fridjhon (33:17):That’s okay, too.

Katie Churchman (33:19):Thank you so much for this, Marita. I think we’re gonna have to do a podcast on each of the principles.

Marita Fridjhon (33:23):I was gonna say it felt like it was a big bite off, and maybe there’s something like that. Yeah.

Katie Churchman (33:28):So many stories coming up. But thank you for today. This was awesome.

Marita Fridjhon (33:32):You’re so very welcome.

Katie Churchman (33:36):Thank you to Marita for kick starting season two with that fantastic overview of the five principles of RSI. Here’s a recap, in no particular order. Principle one, each relationship system has its own unique entity, or what Marita referred to as the Third Entity. Principle two, every member of a relationship system is a voice of the system. Principle three, relationship systems are naturally intelligent, generative, and creative. Principle four, roles belong to the system, not to the individuals that inhabit the system. And principle five, relationship systems are in a constant state of emergence, always in the process of expressing their potential. As Marita and I mentioned at the end of the podcast, we’re going to be deep diving into each of the principles in separate episodes. So look out for those five principal episodes coming out very soon. In the meantime, do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you never miss an episode. And for further articles, online courses, and information about Marita’s work, do check check out crrglobal.com. from the boardroom to the living room, we believe relationship matters.