Katie 0:06 Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe relationship matters from humanity to nature to the larger whole. I’m your host Katie Churchman, and I’m delighted to introduce you to the first instalment of our Masterclass series, ORSC Essentials. This is a specially curated collection of episodes from the podcast archives designed to provide both a taster of the Organization and Relationship Systems Coaching approach and a valuable refresher on its breadth and potential. Across this masterclass, you’ll experience the transformative power of Organization and Relationship Systems Coaching, otherwise known as ORSC, which integrates systems thinking with coaching techniques to enhance relationships, navigate change and foster collaboration. The masterclass will introduce you to leading experts in the field who explore some of the key mindsets and mythologies that define this powerful framework for coaching and for living, whether you are new to ORSC or seeking to deepen your practice, this masterclass will offer you insight into how ORSC can be applied across personal, professional and organizational context to create more resilient and dynamic systems and a healthier and more connected world. I learned so much from diving into the archives and handpicking these clips for this masterclass on ORSC essentials, lessons that feel old and obvious, or irrelevant and unrelatable, can feel refreshed and revived when shaped and framed in new ways. So I do hope you get as much insight and inspiration from this masterclass as I did on the journey to creating it. And please know that if any of the clips capture attention and you want to learn more about the topic or the guest, you can find links to the full episodes in the show notes. Thank you for listening, and I’m excited to welcome you to our first masterclass on ORSC essentials. Our first clip comes from Season One, Episode Seven, “Coach, Consultant or Something Else?’ with CRR Global co-founder, Faith Fuller. In this episode, Faith and I explore the unique aspects of systems coaching, differentiating it from traditional coaching and consultancy. The discussion covers the distinctions between therapy and coaching, how systems coaching blends with consultancy and how the approach can equip clients with the tools to transform their lives.

Faith 2:52
But some of the ways in which we’re different from being a therapist is that, first of all, we don’t generally deal with historical material. It’s not about what happened in your childhood, but sometimes we do, for example, getting triggered. When you get triggered by things, we will say we’re not interested in what happened in your childhood, but that impact of that event is happening now in your life now, and it may have come from your history, but it’s happening in your life now. So we’re interested in what’s happening in your life now, and working with that. Also, we’re non-pathology oriented. You don’t get a diagnosis. We very much hold that all human experience has its own wisdom aspect. That’s the Lion’s Roar. Generally speaking, we’re interested not in healing people, but in promoting the best they can be. It’s very much about how do you take a person who’s already basically healthy and make them better. So let me just pause there. How does that therapeutic-vs-coaching land for you before I get on to consulting? What do you think?

Katie 4:07
Yeah, it definitely lands with what I’ve been thinking. At least, all coaching feels very forward-thinking, goal-orientated, but more so than that, because it’s not just goal-orientated, because everyone who interviews for a job, say, has a goal of getting the job. So what you know defines the winners, the people who get the job over the people who don’t. It’s a system of habits, and I think that’s what we think about. It’s the system within, and then the system beyond. And so I think it’s so much more than just a finite game of getting to a goal. It’s an infinite game that continues beyond the goal. That’s what is, at least for me, different from pure coaching. Wow.

Faith 4:47
You know, I love that. I want to riff off of that. I love the idea that ORSC – and actually I think any good coaching doesn’t have to just be ORSC – is an infinite game. Same. Because for me, good coaching, whether it’s or anything else, is about evolution. Ultimately, it’s not just how can I be the best I am, but how can I become the best of whom I am. I naturally expand out to want to help others. It’s our developmental path is moving past ourselves into ever-larger systems, and how can I be my best self to support the growth of that next larger systemic holon. I love the idea that it’s an infinite game, and I agree with that completely. I also just want to say that most of us in coaching have done our therapeutic work. I don’t want to imply that there’s no overlap between therapy and coaching, so I think that’s a lie. It’s all about evolving. But in therapy, you’re often healing something, and in coaching, I think you’re moving more in the direction of the best evolution you can make in your own personal development.

But I think it’s a continuum, and so I don’t like to say it’s not this, it’s always that, or scan therapy. It’s hugely complimentary. One looks at the previous maps and one looks at the future maps exactly and understanding those those processes. But I guess my biggest question is, how does ORSC differentiate itself from pure coaching, right?

Faith 6:27
Well, I would say that what is that we need to be able to own that we have more than just coaching skills in the sense of – we may have a history coming from a therapeutic background. I also want to say I’m not at all ashamed. I hold myself as being a coach/consultant. That probably would not make the ICF very happy to hear that, because they’re very clear. Consultants solve problems. Coaches don’t. But here’s the thing where we stand in ORSC is that it is the client’s agenda always. That’s the coaching stance, but we have content expertise that can help move the client in the direction of their agenda. So we do have content expertise, which can make us a consultant. It’s like – let me show you how to get more out of your team by using a designed alliance. Your goal is to have a more aligned team. Great. Here’s a tool that will help you to get there. So your goal, but we have tools that are specific, that we train people in, that is a little more like a consultant, giving a solution. However, the stance of coaching is checking. Is this tool meeting your agenda? You never, ever forget the client’s agenda. I’m not just using a tool because I think it’s cool. I check with my client over and over. Is this helping you think this is going to be a useful tool for your team? Why? You know, how does it need to be tweaked? So you co-create, but you do have something you’re bringing to the game that isn’t just powerful questions. There are tools that we do promote. We’re a little different from more classic coaching, but we do meet the ICF requirements of the client’s agenda and not interfering with their process. I do think that the client has their answers about what they need, but I’ve got some goodies to help them get what they said they needed. Does that make sense?

Katie 8:36
Yeah. So as a coach consultant, are we giving them the fishing rod so that they can catch the fish. Is that the difference?

Faith 8:43
It’s a really interesting analogy. Yes, we would begin with a client saying – we, you know, we come to the client and say, “What do you want to do?” And the client says, “I want to fish. I want to be a better fisherman.” You know? And so, great, I’m not going to tell them about what kind of car to buy. Nope, okay. They want to talk fishing. So what is it about fishing that you want to know more about? Well, I need to know about equipment. Or, what’s the right place to go to find blah, blah, and I can go. Okay, so you want to know about equipment. What kind of equipment? So I’m unfolding what they need, and then they can say, well, I want my teams to be more integrated. Great. So I have a tool that might help you, you know, integrate your team better. It’s called the Designed Team Alliance. Do you want to hear more about it? Yes, you do, great. So I’ll train them, and they’ll say – Why don’t you try it? What do you think? You think this would help your team? I don’t know. Let me try it. Great. Have them try it, come back, this didn’t work because of blah blah. And I go, great. So how do we need to change it so it’s collaborative? But I have something once I’m clear, you know? Okay, so the thing they want is this size, about that big and it’s shaped like that. I’ve got something that’s shaped like that.”

Katie 10:08
Our second look back comes from Season Four, Episode Seven, “Everyday ORSC: Bringing a Coaching Mindset to Our Everyday Interactions” which was recorded with CRR Global co-founder Marita Fridjhon. In this episode, Marita and I discuss how the principles of Organizational and Relationship Systems Coaching can be applied in daily interactions. Marita emphasizes the value of adopting a coaching mindset to enhance communication, improve relationships and foster a deeper connection with those around us. This episode offers practical advice on integrating coaching techniques into everyday life, making it a valuable lesson for anyone looking to enhance their interpersonal skills.

Marita 11:02 * * * * *
If we can simply look at one another as human beings and in our look convey – even if we don’t say anything – if we can convey I see you. I care about you. You’re good enough. How do we occupy that in our own body? Being in a situation like that, where that’s not always the case, no?

Katie 11:28
It can be thankless work, stacking shelves, right? Not so obvious. Like coaching, sometimes we get a lot of love and support from our clients, and it can be quite full of gratitude. And so I wonder how far something like “I see you” goes. I wonder how far that ripples out into the world.

Marita 11:48
I would love. I think that if there’s for me personally a new mission and vision, it is about that it is – yes, a contribution to be done on a corporate level, on a coaching industry level and all of that. But from that personal system of self that is me, how much change and kindness and positivity can I help facilitate in a world that is in crisis? Because there’s not enough of that. There are places where I won’t be able to but that’s what I would love for everybody that’s listening to just think about. Where is it that I can bring more of that? Where is it that my skills and privilege can be leveraged? Not because there’s payment for it, not because I was the leader of a successful project, but because I am a human being for whom relationship mattered on the street. That contributes to that Gottman statistic around the positive to negative ratios are ever changing. Now there needs to be at least five to one, even during conflict. Just think about the world. We’re nowhere near that as people. We’re not working with one another.

Katie 13:04
And I think this builds off what we were saying in another session – about how sometimes as coaches when we’re not doing the work enough ourselves, we forget that actually it starts with system. one system – me as coach. It’s short-sighted for us to think, “Oh, well, I’m doing good in the world. I’m a coach,” and then go out into the world and not actually bring any of that to the rest of the communities you’re in, not walking the talk?

Marita 13:23
Yes, absolutely. There’s something else that is a secondary piece of this that also I don’t know. I’m 99.9 percent sure that that’s not why I’m doing it. That’s not why you are doing what you just described. But there is something about how it gives back to us that’s actually part of what we describing here at the moment is what they are talking about in the longevity studies as a social construct. Social construct is the most important research finding about what creates and what supports longevity. Social contract is these kinds of interactions with people that we don’t know. It plays into some of that as well.

Katie 14:13
What you’re making me realize, as well as curiosity is key, because I think sometimes we can see people for their roles. It’s not realistic. Roles belong to the system. And then for some reason – maybe it’s busy-ness, maybe it’s short-sightedness, whatever – we’re not curious. We feel like there’s nothing to learn there, that we know who that person is. My mother always used to embarrass me when I was growing up. She’d make friends with everyone at the supermarket, and she’d find out everything about them. There’s something – it’s a superpower. Now I see that because yes, to actually go in and be like, who are you? Tell me about who you are, beyond your job title and all of these boxes we put people in.

Unknown Speaker 14:53
That is, I mean, that’s the coach approach on the street right there.

Marita 14:55
I think so. I think so. There are times when I’ve been in difficult situations, and I know that if I stay at home feeling the way I feel at the moment, Faith, my partner, will become the target. It will become about her, but it isn’t. So those are the times that I say to Faith – “Faith, I’m not fit for human consumption. I’m taking the dog for a walk.” So the dog gets a walk and I get out. But so often, I actually will go either to the post office, where I collect mail and send something away, or to the grocery store bent on and committed to make contact with human beings in a way that will bring positivity. I know that’s one of the things that shifted for me as well. So I think that there is something. It does go both ways. The impact – and again, we talk about global impact, we talk about corporate impact when we do coaching – if we just look the examples that you just used, the impact organizationally within that store is massive. That is simply because we were kind human beings for whom relationships matter.

Katie 16:18
We’re now staying in Season Four and moving to Episode 19, “Roles and Relationship” with Sandra Cain and Maddie Weinreich, both of whom are senior faculty members at CRR Global. In this conversation, they delve into the dynamic nature of roles within relationships. They explore how understanding and navigating these roles can significantly impact the quality of our interactions and connections with others. This clip offers practical insight into recognizing and working with roles to foster healthier and more balanced relationships.

Sandra 17:05
I guess it’s the idea that from a systemic point of view, people almost fall into roles. They don’t always fall in, but they take on roles. They occupy roles. They fall into them sometimes. That’s one way that systems play things out with each other, right? It’s helpful to know that. What’s really common is we start to take things very personally. We hold somebody else, whatever they’re saying, as really personal. There’s something very useful about realizing that it’s not just that person. They’re holding a role for the system.

Maddie 17:38
It’s how the system functions is by roles. Just like you said, Sandra, sometimes people think they are that role. We get caught up in it – our identity, one’s identity, can be caught up in the role. The role is bigger than the person, and the person is bigger than the role. So the role will exist whether – that person could come and go, but also that person is more than occupying that role. That’s some of the work that we do as systems coaches – to help educate people to understand that they’re not the role, but this role is needed in the system in order for it to work.

Katie 18:21
So what do you both find so useful about this structure, having this concept of roles and then having these structures? We’re going to talk more about the inner and outer roles. Why is this useful?

Sandra 18:33
Practically speaking, it’s useful for all the same reasons. Anyone who’s taken an ORSC course has those “aha!” moments when they hear things – oh, that happens. Oh, that explains it. There’s a normalizing quality to it, and also it gives people a little bit more space. We used to talk about putting people in a box. That person always does this, or they always do that. And it was the Arbinger institute that wrote about that way back when, putting people in a box. It’s hard for people to get out of that, to shake that, you know? Maybe I’m the devil’s advocate in one conversation with a team that I’m on, but I don’t want to be put in that box. I’m always the one that’s the troublemaker, or I’m the one who pushes against everything, instead of seeing it as not so personal and that that I’m holding a role for the system or for the team. I think it’s very helpful to not pigeonhole people.

Maddie 19:27
I want to just piggyback on that, Sandra, in terms of the space. It helps people create a little bit of space between them and the task that they’re doing, the job that they’re holding, or the way they’re doing something. People can take things personally and this gives them just a little bit more space be able to navigate a little more consciously and intentionally, right?

Sandra 19:53
As opposed to going to those default places where we sometimes fall into a role. It’s good for the person who’s falling into the role to be aware of that, but it’s also good for the whole team to know. “Okay, let’s give it a little space here, and recognize that person’s just expressing something for this, for the benefit of all of us. You know, to learn from doesn’t mean they’re right or they’re wrong, but they’re, they’re holding an important role for the team.

Maddie 20:21
I think it also creates options, because if you see that that’s a role and how that role is occupied, there’s lots of different ways to occupy the role, and people don’t always think of that. They think, “Oh, I have to do this a certain way.” But the role exists for the system, it’s needed, and how it gets occupied – there’s lots of range in that.

Sandra 20:44
it makes me think, Maddie, that there’s a lot of stereotypes as well that are established in the workplace. Maybe that someone who’s running finance is really tight with money, or is holding it in a certain way that’s very rigid, or that the role of the leader could be not very favorable. Maybe they just want to do their own thing. You know, any of those kind of typical stereotype things, those do live in in our cultures, right? How do we bust some of those by seeing people occupy those roles in different ways?

Katie 21:25
It feels quite freeing in the way you present it. For the person, they can expand and step into other roles, but also the role itself can stretch into something different.

Maddie 21:35
Something else that’s useful about roles and talking about them is some of the things that happen with roles. So when you’re talking to folks that come in for team coaching and they say, “Well, I’m so sick of doing this particular task.” We may, as the coach, say, “Oh, it sounds like you might have role nausea.” And they’re like, “Yes, that’s what it is.” The naming of some of these issues that happen with roles can help the system to feel seen and known and understood. Being able to have this vocabulary that we have for working with our roles, maybe they might be talking about some situation, As the coach, we might say “well, it sounds like you might need some new roles, and that again, they feel like, yes, you get us. Or sounds like, maybe some of those roles are being occupied so skillfully, and then it’s not so much about the person, it’s more about how that role is being occupied. So I think part of what it does is it helps the system feel seen and known and understood. And like we said, it creates that space as well.

Katie 22:40
Would you say it’s a more objective stance then, when working with systems?

Sandra 22:45
I think that’s a way to put it – more objective, more neutral. You know, I’m thinking about your examples, Maddie, and if I’m on that team, how different it is to hear, “Oh, there must be some role fatigue or role nausea,” rather than “You stink at your job” or “You’re holding everybody back” or all the gossip that’s maybe happening around the edges of that client team, They’re just really frustrated with this person, and that person’s over there going, “I didn’t even want this role, but nobody else knew how to do it.” Sometimes it’s just somebody has to do it, or you get chosen. You say, “I guess that’s my job.” And hey, sometimes that works great, but a lot of times it’s a little clunky. To have other language for it – other than you stink at your job, you’re not doing a good job, or other people getting frustrated and irritated – the language alone, as Maddie said, can be so helpful to just have a way to talk about it that isn’t so punitive.

Katie 23:45
Our fourth clip in this Masterclass Series comes from Season Five, Episode 14, “ORSC Inspired Organizational Change with CRR Global faculty member Frank uit de Weerd, who is also co-author of the book “Systems Inspired Leadership.” This episode explores how the principles of Organization and Relationship Systems Coaching can drive effective and sustainable change within organizations. Frank shares insights on how to leverage all tools and approaches to navigate complex organizational dynamics, enhance collaboration and foster a culture of continuous improvement. This clip is particularly valuable for leaders and change agents looking to implement impactful organizational change initiatives.

Frank 24:42
So first of all, we talk about organizations. Yeah, you see a lot of focus we have in ORSC is around relationships. It’s about teams. But here we talk about organizations. The first thing is if people could look at organizations as systems, that would be a big benefit. We are so trained in seeing problems as we analyze them and their parts are not good. Can we also see that all things are being interconnected? That the relationship between the entities, between the parts, are more important, maybe, than the entity set itself? That’s the systems approach. There’s so much systems blindness, Katie, it’s amazing. We’re not trained in it. And systems inspire the notion of the Third Entity comes in. Can we see an organization or an ecosystem as a living system? Living system means it has a heart, it beats. It has intelligence. It has needs. And if you start approaching an organization like that, everything will change.

Katie 25:48
I love that term you just used, systems blindness. I’ve not heard that. I wonder – do you feel a lot of the changes that are going on right now in some of the bigger organizations in the world are systems blind, really?

Frank 25:59
It’s also very natural. You know, our famous – in ORSC, and also in systems inspired leadership, the famous systems rule. Everyone is right … partially. That is such a ground-breaking approach, because normally we experience the way we perceive things as the absolute truth. To understand that maybe based on the experience of others, the world is different, you can have a different experience … There may be truth and wisdom in it is really difficult for people. That explains a lot around systems blindness.

Katie C 26:41
Okay, so I thank you firstly for normalizing that this doesn’t come naturally to us humans. Not at all. And then I wonder, does this require quite a lot of preparation up front? Because if it’s not something we do on autopilot, I’m presuming that unless we plan for it, we’re just going to go into our old way of doing things.

Frank 27:01
For me, the whole notion of being aware is really important, Katie, so creating awareness around it. Also, like you say, it may already be more difficult – the way we are as human beings, but also, remember our educational system. We focus on problems, and problems are being solved by analyzing them. You look at the parts, and then you change the parts, and that’s the solution. That’s how we are trained. There’s also one solution to every problem, and you can also approach it differently. In a way, nature is a big example for me. The way nature works with change – it’s much more organic. It starts small. It starts in the front line, or very local. Remember, nature has already been able to produce life for 3.8 billion years. Yeah, it’s much longer than 100-plus years of management theory.

Katie 28:02
That’s such a good point. And so if I am someone who is leading 1000-plus people for a big change, what do I need to do upfront in order to successfully prepare for a systems inspired change?

Frank 28:18
I think it starts by being quite clear – what’s the purpose of the organization. The buzzword – the “purpose” – is really truly referring to what’s the why? What’s the North Star? What are we after? What’s the direction going beyond? Often in many commercial organizations, you have that profit is an indicator or a byproduct, but it’s around adding value, creating value to a set of stakeholders. Being clear around that is really important. If you look at an organization of 1000 people, which may also be globally dispersed – it’s quite complex thing. So another tip I would give is get a microcosm of your organization there to start talking about it. If you have a group of people, it could be 10 or 15, the patterns of the system and the wisdom of the system is there. It’s like a kaleidoscope. Start talking, and based on that, it evolves into where you want to go. Maybe the last point there is to also allow for local freedom. If you’re clear on what you need to do, this is what we need to achieve together. Also allow people on the ground to determine how they do it. I can see that toolkits are being made. Everything is prescribed, and if things go wrong, even more controls are put up, and it really stifles people, and it takes out successful change. These are three things that are coming up, and it’s broader. I don’t know how it sounds to you. Kate.

Katie C 29:59
It lands, because also I’m thinking about how we live in this VUCA world – volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous – and I can imagine someone sitting down and having this perfect change plan, this map for the change. Then two seconds later, the whole environment has changed. How do we work with this emergent change that many of us are dealing with on a daily basis, because it’s quite different. And the pace is very fast compared to, say, 50 years ago.

Frank 30:28
It’s great that you put that up. The change is very, very fast. The good news, or the bad news, is it will not change. It’s also what it will be in the future. So here self-awareness of leaders of people in the organizations is becoming really important. If you get in the stress, if you feel the sense of urgency, you become very reactive. You say, – “Let’s do this. Let’s do that.” So the ability to slow down is really being compromised. It’s not very natural. That’s the invitation for leaders. In a fast-changing world where you need to be quick and agile, being able to slow down, to listen to all voices in the system. And all between brackets, of course, if you have 100,000 people, you can’t consult everybody. You have microcosms. You can get data and then see what’s the most intelligent move we can make. In the ORSC language, what’s the minimum viable edge we can we can adopt? I think it’s easy to talk about it in theory. To do it is more difficult. But the good news is, the moment you make a change, you get immediate feedback. Okay, the system is being revealed. Oh, that’s working, that’s not working. And then you adjust. And that would also advocate for a more agile approach, step by step, minimal, viable edges, not crossing edge that are actually too big to take.

Katie 32:01
Our next clip comes from a bonus episode from 2023 focused on ORSC certification with CRR Global senior faculty member Judy van Zon and ORSC certified coach and leader Katherine Starks. In this episode, they discuss the journey and benefits of learning and integrating the ORSC approach. In this clip in particular, they discuss the skills and competencies developed and how it can enhance one’s professional practice in coaching and leadership.

Katherine S. 32:43
I’d like to just maybe go back at one step. I came into a role as a senior leader in a team that was not functioning well. There was a lot of conflict, a lot of toxic behavior, and I saw how a number of the tools that we learned during the ORSC journey were so helpful. And I really, I can really say I changed the entire way that I led teams. Just simple things like doing a DTA, an alignment at the beginning. They’d never had anything like that before. Or identifying toxins in the communication we had with one another. I was part of the system, so I couldn’t coach it, per se, but I used a lot of the ORSC competencies in my communications. I learned, for instance, something a lot of leaders can’t handle. I learned to hear difficult voices. I learned to really embrace deep democracy. I had somebody in my team that used to scream in meetings. Previously, I would have just tried to shut that down. It felt very uncomfortable, but just by listening to it, and honoring that primary enabled us to move as a team into a much more successful performance. When I saw that and experienced that practice, and saw the results, black on white. We dramatically increased employment engagement scores in a whole organization. I was managing the leadership team. We increased sales dramatically. It became very clear to me that if you can bring this energy, this ORSC, these competencies into teams, it can have a huge impact. Not just about people feeling good about coming to work, but it actually impacts the bottom line. And so I knew that I wanted to get more into this. I also knew I wanted to have a bigger impact, which is why I left the corporate world. And I also knew that I really wanted to get good at this stuff and deepen my knowledge and my skills, and that’s why I did Certification. And I feel like Certification really delivered for me, and I really learned so much and became so much more competent.

Katie 34:56
Wow, Kathy, that’s such an amazing example of stepping into systems inspired leadership. I’m curious, off the back of that, was there quite a big switch when you moved from that leader role to that systems-inspired coach role?

Katherine S 35:09
it wasn’t a big leap, because I’d always prided myself on having a bit of a unique leadership style. Which wasn’t always very popular by the way. My focus was always on my people and developing them and focusing on people’s strengths. That was always the way that I work. But what changed was – I think I just saw the system through a different lens. You know, it’s this idea that it’s a system, it’s a voice of the system, as opposed to seven individuals or 10, or whatever. That was what changed. There were some tools that were useful. What was really useful for me, for instance, was understanding ghosts in systems. There were a lot of ghosts in the past in this team. Like managers that had done certain things, and people were very upset by that. Just talking about that as a concept was a real game changer. I wouldn’t have known about that before doing ORSC. I think it was more small, subtle changes that led to really big results. You don’t always have to change a lot.

Katie 36:13
That talks to the two-degree tiller shift. I think many of us are quite impatient and want to see it all happen overnight. But actually, if you can stay with it over time, we can see huge change. Yeah, absolutely.

Katherine S 36:23
And this was a team that had been suffering for the last five years, and I didn’t change anybody in the team.

Katie 36:30
So would you say seeing that impact of those tools was what led you then to deepening your work with this, this work?

Katherine S 36:38
Absolutely. I was so – having seen the impact it had on my own team, and then I’d go around within the organization, sharing some of the tools and the impact that was having with others. I was convinced that this was the way to lead. This systems-inspired leadership. And I’m very convinced that when we do coach teams, one of the things we do is some education along the way. And of course, the goal of that is for them to take that back into their own organizations and start applying and start thinking about things differently.

Judy Van Zon 10 37:14
I love that, Kathy, that you are bringing in that systems inspired leadership voice as well. One of the things that we are noticing in Certification, if we look at our participants, we’re getting more and more people from a leadership position that do not necessarily want to become full-time coaches and but want to use the coach approach in their leadership style. So there’s definitely an emergence happening towards systems inspired leadership.

Katie C. 37:49
We’re now headed to season two, Episode 10, “Myths and Myth Change” with CRR Global faculty member Floyd Carlson. This episode focuses on the role of myths in shaping our understanding of change within systems and relationships. In this clip, we explore how myths influence behavior and decision making, and how recognizing these underlying narratives can help facilitate more effective change. This conversation is for anyone looking to understand the deeper forces at play in organizational or personal transformations.

Floyd 38:35
So the first thing that comes to mind is – what’s a myth? You know, a lot of times, you know, there’s this belief that, wow, it’s kind of mystic, or it’s an untruth. And from the ORSC language and from how we use it, it’s more that we lean into Joseph Campbell’s work where it’s truly a deep meaning within the relationship. So a myth – and there could be other words we use for it – so it can be a story, or it could be the narrative. In ORSC, we use this in quite a few different ways. We have this thing called Original Myth, that story of when you and your partner first got together, or when I joined this team. What’s interesting is that when we get into this myth or this story, we feel it because it hits this other aspect that we have in ORSC called the three levels of reality, which is the essence, that feeling when we first started a role or we first met that person. Maybe it was love at first sight. There was that feeling, that essence. Then we started dreaming about what’s possible in that particular relationship, and then we get into that consensus reality of that day-to-day stuff. I was just reminded about thinking of this. And this leads into this myth change. I remember one organization that I had joined. After I just got done having interviews, I stepped out and I said, “Wow, that fit like a glove.” So that was like essence. Then I started dreaming what was possible in this new role. And then, you know, I joined your organization, and you start getting connected, and you’re doing all those great things. And then all sudden, something starts to change. As we learn and as we grow in our relationships or in our teams, all of a sudden, you know that story, that myth, starts to make a shift. And particularly for me at that time in that organization, it was around the financial crisis. So the things that I had believed that were true no longer seemed to be there, and we were so tied into some consensus reality. It was like there’s this new story wanting to emerge, this new myth. When we talk about myth change, it’s what is that new story that that new chapter for this team, this relationship, and what’s actually possible there. And the other piece that is emerging is also life transitions. It’s kind of interesting where sometimes, with my coaching, and maybe you see this too, Katie, is where all sudden, it’s like you get a series of three of everything. And also I had these couples who I started to have this opportunity to work with who were becoming empty nesters. And so that was a life-changing event where, you know, they first were there as a couple, and there’s a myth around that. Then they had, you know, children, which then for the next 18 or so years became such a big piece, and then all of a sudden, they’re getting ready to this new transition into this new area of empty nesters. And they kind of lost their identity. They lost that connection. So that’s where you know this myth change work actually can have such a benefit, is to help them create what is that that new story, that new chapter of the book, and yet also give them an opportunity to look at what we just went through, because there’s something there to be honored or grieved. And I find that that’s such a emotional but strong connection back to hey, here’s where we’ve been and now we realize there’s somewhere new to go. So definitely, you know, life events, role reversals. Say somebody was the breadwinner of that system. And also, now you know that role has changed. That’s a myth change opportunity again, the big events, and there’s others that you can just start to imagine

Katie C 42:44
Our next stop in this Masterclass episode takes us to Season Five, Episode 15, “Exploring Our Relationship with the Toxins.” In this episode, I talk with CRR UK partner Nairy McMahon about understanding and addressing the toxins that can negatively impact relationships and organizational systems. In this clip, we explore how these toxic behaviors and dynamics emerge, how they affect interactions, and what steps can be taken to mitigate their impact. This episode provides valuable insights for anyone looking to create healthier, more constructive environments in both personal and professional settings.

Nairi 43:30
Yeah. I mean, it’s a way to communicate. Teams, and actually all of us – use a form of the toxins to communicate something that we need. We don’t know how to say it, so it becomes quite unskillful. The interesting thing about the toxins is that they all they invite another toxin to come up. The toxins are defensiveness, blaming, stonewalling and contempt. If you, if a person or a team doesn’t know how to communicate something that they’re not happy about and they use one of those, then inevitably, another one will come up to respond. It’s like having a relationship between these toxins, until we step away a little bit from the toxins and then look at it and say, Hang on a moment. What need is trying to be expressed here? And how do we go back a little bit, a few paces to figure out what it is that we’re trying to say unskillfully?

Katie 44:26
And I love this inquiry that we’re bringing today on relationship with the toxins, because I think for many of us, we do this tool, maybe we even train in this work, and then we think, yeah, I’ve got the toxins. I’ve done that now. Yet they continue to emerge and evolve in our lives. And so I wonder for you, how has it been useful to look through the lens of relationship as it relates to the toxins?

Nairy 44:51
The thing is, what I love is that you took us back to how these toxins are introduced. So we introduce it as a tool in Fundamentals. On day two, after we’ve done some education around positivity and why it’s important, we have this fun experience, and we normalize it, and everyone has a good time. And even when you work with teams, that’s exactly or couples, it’s exactly how it feels. All of a sudden it’s out in the open, everybody knows that, wow, in this relationship, this is how I show up, this is how you show up. And I’ve also showed up like this in other relationships. So it’s all there. Relationship, the type of relationship, it is almost this permission for a particular type of toxin to come out, because we’re all good at all of them. Even though we say, what do you master for? We’re all good at all of them, but then we kind of put it away. It’s almost like we’ve done the work. And here’s the antidotes keep going and, you know, we go off, and it’s in our consciousness. Maybe we want the defensiveness the way we did before, but it comes up again and again every relationship. The more sophisticated we are at being in relationship, conscious of the relationship the most sophisticated, our toxin comes up. It almost, it’s almost like it’s fact, it’s justifiable. But you did this last time, well, but you did do it. Here are the facts. You know that? Yeah, that’s what we bring in. I think we become a lot more sophisticated at it. And

Katie 46:17
I think that is something I can certainly relate to. I remember one time I think we might have been leading together, and we just led the toxin grid, and we had a break, and it was a virtual course, and I think I went straight into blame with my husband outside of the session. And it was only afterwards, when I was able to step back and take the balcony view that I realized it was blame. Because in the moment, I think I thought, well, I’m being skillful. And I was sort of on my high chair about that, and I think that’s why it’s so important. What you’re saying here is that we have to keep on our toes, because otherwise these toxins will continue to trip us up, and they will do of course, but they will show up in different ways, and we need to be aware of those new ways in which they live in our lives.

Nairy 46:59
Yeah. And so just to build on what you said, we become skillful in the way we use toxins to express a need. What we want is for us to be skillful in using the antidotes to express the need. I still think the impulse that we get from the toxins are really important, because if something happens and it steps on something. You know, you immediately. It’s a shortcut. It’s like anger. It’s a shortcut. You go right into it. It’s not great. You want a solution. You might stonewall because you want to protect yourself because something just happened, or you want to defend the position, or you want to you know you’re blaming on something because something’s not working. But the question is, how do you then skillfully – rather than act on that – how can you skillfully go into the antidotes and see which one of those are going to be supporting you to communicate what needs to be communicated so you can solve it? Otherwise, it’s just going to go round and round and round, as you said, getting more sophisticated, bringing more facts, quoting statistics, or bringing a study that was done or something you saw on Instagram. I mean, these are all really super-sophisticated ways of defending a position that I’m holding without accepting the fact that, you know, all voices are welcome, and some voices are going to be really different from the voice that I hold.

Katie 48:24
We’re now headed to season four, Episode 10, The Inside Team: Getting to know the system of me. In this episode, I explore ways of working with the system of me with CRR global faculty member Cynthia Lloyd asked the concept of the inside team represents the various internal voices and perspectives that influence our thoughts and behaviors. This clip focuses on how understanding and managing these internal dynamics can lead to greater self-awareness, improved decision-making, and more authentic interactions.

Cynthia 49:11
The way this came into being, I’m going to go way back in time. I have a master’s degree in acting, and in my acting training, early on, I was taught to use Transactional Analysis, the stuff that Eric Byrne created, Transactional Analysis as a way to analyze a script. Now, what does that mean? Some people don’t know what. What the heck is that? We all know this. If I say to you, there’s a creative child part of you, or there’s a critical parent part of you, that’s common knowledge now, right? That’s Eric Burns’ work. So I studied that. I used that in my acting. That was all really cool. Fast forward, I come into coaching with CTI and I learned to be a collective coach. Somewhere along the way, I start thinking – wouldn’t it be cool if we could somehow use that idea of internal voices with coaching so clients could see the saboteur, and I knew this, but it didn’t quite come into into focus. Right? Then, fast forward a little bit more – Marita Fridjhon and Faith Fuller come into my life, and I start leading for ORSC. I start learning this work. One of the main courses that I led frequently was the Geography course. So those people who have been in that course know that we do this whole part on outer roles, inner roles, secret roles, you know, ghost roles, all of this. Well, when we started getting into secret roles, secret selves. I was like, Oh, this is this connects back to that. What if? What if we start noticing what in anything that we’re getting challenged by in life? What if we start noticing the different parts of us that are talking, and then what if we start doing relationship coaching with them? And so I was on the phone with a friend one day who’s also a coach, and I said, Hey, would you mind if I try this thing with you? I love it. And he was like, Sure, you know. And pretty soon we started creating this idea. The first part of it is to meet your inside team. And for me, it really helps to hold it that way, right? So I’m going to give you some a weird thought that I haven’t really said out loud before, but I’ll try it here. So I want you to think about what it takes for you to get up in the morning and get going. There are probably some little conversations that flitter in your head. I’m just making up, like, Oh, is it time to get up? Yeah, it’s time to get up. Oh, let’s start the coffee. Let’s do this. Let’s Oh, let me take a shower or whatever. And generally speaking, that is your inside team working together to get your day moving. Right? You probably, I’m making this up, you probably don’t sit on the edge of your bed and go, What should I do first? I don’t know what to do. I don’t know if I should get up or I shouldn’t get up, or if I should have coffee, or should I brush my like you don’t sit there and freak out about it. You just do it right? So we all have parts places in our lives where our inside team in that particular area is working really well together. The roles are clear, the focuses are clear, the values are clear, and off we go.

Katie 53:19
So what’s the value in getting to know our inside team, if it sort of works on autopilot to get us up out of bed and moving for the day? Why do we need to know about this team?

Cynthia 53:29
So that’s all lovely when we have inside teams that are working well together. But for many of us, like if you think about a place in your life, maybe it could be a relationship that you’re having a struggle with. It could be, I need to organize my office. I need to do that. You know? It could be any number of – I want to write a book. Any place where your client finds themselves getting a little twisted, right? As a coach, when I’m hearing something like, Well, you know, I’m thinking about writing a book, but I don’t know, I don’t think I have the time for it. I don’t think I’m going to be able to do it. I’m hoping that you could literally hear different voices there, right? That’s what I’m listening for. I’m listening for a different tone of voice, a different speech pattern, and that’s when I know I’ve got more than one part of my client talking. That’s their inside team trying to figure something out.

Katie 54:41
So that’s fascinating, because it’s a way of working systemically with individuals.

Cynthia 54:56
That’s right, and I guess it makes us understand why, uh, couples, partnerships, teams, are so complicated, because everyone’s got their own little chatter going on inside, exactly. So we’ll probably get there a little bit later. Here. But when I, when I have been starting to work with teams and groups about noticing, like if – let’s say there’s someone on my team that I tend to have trouble with. What is it? What? What’s the inside team player that I’m listening to that has trouble with that one? What’s the player that they have come up that makes me then react to them right? If we could actually take the time to find that out and to talk about it. Now we can start to work out some of our stuff.

Katie 55:40
For our penultimate clip in this Masterclass Episode on ORSC Essentials, we’re headed to Season Five, Episode Three, “Bringing Metaskills to Life.” In this episode, I delve into the concept of metaskills with CRR Global senior faculty member Kiki Kessler. Across the conversation, we discuss how these metaskills can be consciously developed and integrated into coaching leadership and everyday life to enhance effectiveness and authenticity. This clip provides practical insights into harnessing the power of metaskills to create deeper, more impactful connections.

Katie 56:21
For all of our listeners who might not be familiar with the term metaskills, if you can introduce this concept?

Kiki 56:27
I’m going to use as best as I can the way we describe it in the courses, and there we introduce it as follows – that a metaskill is a stance, an attitude or a philosophy from which the coach operates in order to consciously and intentionally help shape an emotional field in which the client can do that work. So that’s quite a mouthful.

Katie 56:53
I guess I want to ask you that how, how are metaskills useful? And you mentioned as a coach, so how are they specifically useful to us as coaches?

Kiki 57:01
Well, my own experience, it really helps me to stay in tune of what’s happening right in front of me, where I temporarily become part of the system that I’m working with, align with the emotional field. And when I do that, I can adapt my voice, my facial expressions, the way I hold my body, the energy that I generate in our order to either meet the emotional field that the client is experiencing or that I think they are in at that moment. But I can also choose to shape and shift into something that helps to either clear some of the energy that they’re in, or help them cross an edge into another energy so they can lean into other aspects of themselves, to get some new information, to have a different conversation, to have a different bodily or emotional experience.

Katie 58:07
They really are such a powerful tool. And you mentioned the word energy, and I find that they really help us to tap into those different energies that we bring. And it’s amazing that you can put one word in your head, curiosity or maybe serious for a certain client, and it can change so much – the facial expressions, the gestures, and all of that is going on behind the scenes, and yet this one metaskill can completely change the way we show up with our clients, and thus how that session goes.

Kiki 58:37
Absolutely. What metaskills are we in right now?

Katie 58:43
I see there’s a lot of delight right now and enthusiasm. What about for you?

Kiki 58:47
Some excitement, passion for this work? Connection, really, feeling very connected with you in this conversation, connected to the material that we’re discussing, the work that we get to do through that.

Katie 59:05
But I love that you brought that question, what metaskills are we in right now? Because so often I think we can just show up with what we wake up with that day, and that’s fine if it’s serving us, but quite a lot of the time it’s not, and by the time say we get home to our families, we end up taking in something really unhelpful or unskillful. I think those, those reminders, those constant reminders, what metaskill am I taking into this coaching session, to this party, to my family, are so useful because then we can be more intentional in our in our impact and in our lives.

Kiki 59:39
I think that’s crucial. Underlying that word that you just used – the intentional – first, being conscious of what we would like to create so we can also get part of the experience that we want for ourselves or for that relationship. Then take responsibility for bringing that energy in, rather than somebody else responsible for it. It really helps, and I often see that. I mean, we’re talking about it from a professional stance right now, but at home, this works just as well, maybe even better, but it’s something that I’m still learning every day. Like okay, if I want a good conversation where we go into depth, can I bring depth? Am I waiting for somebody else to ask the deeper questions? Or if I want to have a connection with the kids and have fun, am I in that mood, or am I rather reading a book with a cup of tea on the couch? Sometimes I find there is a discrepancy with what I want and the energy that I’m in in that moment, and do I have enough gusto to then change that? But as simple as well – like okay, guys, let’s clean the house together and we turn on some upbeat music – will help to get into that spirit of doing that type of work, making it more fun and more enjoyable and like we’re in it all together. I really believe that music and different types of music are also in that field of metaskills,

Katie 1:01:13
It’s amazing how much it can shift your mood. It’s something that when I’m doing presentation skills coaching, I will often suggest to people do something that changes your state. So it might not be for everyone doing press-ups, but for some of my clients, it’s getting down and doing 10 press-ups. Or for other people, it’s dancing, and it can completely shift you out of that that nervous state or that anxiety that might be showing up. It’s amazing what we can do when we use the body, this amazing instrument that we mostly ignore because we walk around with, sort of our heads on sticks. We forget about this, this intelligence below.

Kiki 1:01:50
When you say that, I’m also thinking that when we start working with this concept of metaskills in the courses and through Certification, for those who choose that path, it might sometimes still feel a bit abstract, like it’s something that because we do it consciously and intentionally, that it comes from the head. And I also believe that when we as students and practitioners of this work, when we start to expand on our inner range, you know, in Geography, that whole mention of secret selves that makes you you, all of these secret selves, they come with a particular energy. One is maybe a little bit more outgoing and vibrant and playful and the dancer or the rock star, and you have others that are more reserved, great listeners, sometimes a bit shy, but every secret self holds a quality, and the more you get familiar with that whole range, you get familiar with that palette of energies that you can lean into and don’t have to so consciously or actively think about – oh, now I need to bring this kind of emotional field. I have to choose that particular metaskill. It’s less robotic. You trust in bringing this because you mentioned the body. And I think when you get to connect with your gut and with your heartbeat and with your shaky knees, and all of the information that your body can bring into you of what’s going on in the emotional field. It becomes easier to lean into that palette and then to just yeah – also, I’m moving right now and you don’t see that on a podcast, but you get into that flow where it is easy to lean into a different metaskill. Three seconds later, another one shows up, and you’re not attached or not fixed on what it should look like.

Katie 1:03:58
Our final clip takes us right back to Season One, episode 14, Integrating Systems Coaching with CRR Global co founder Faith Fuller. In this episode, we discuss integrating systems coaching into various professional practices. This clip explores the benefits of adopting a systems perspective, particularly in enhancing team dynamics, improving organizational culture and fostering more resilient relationships.

Katie 1:04:32
I wanted to ask you today about integrating ORSC with other things. So whether it’s coaching or Agile work or consultancy, how do we integrate this toolkit with all the other strings on our bow?

Faith 1:04:47
It’s a great question. And you know, a minute ago, you and I were talking, and you said that you thought that ORSC might be more about how you are than what you do. And I thought, Well, I wonder if that’s true. Because ORSC has all these tools. You know, there’s plenty to do as well. But where I think you’re right is that ORSC is a systemic approach. So it’s about – how do I bring everything I’ve learned about systems in ORSC to anything I’m doing? So if for example I remember I had this company I was working with, and they wanted us to do a retreat for them on marketing. And it’s like, well, I didn’t feel like I knew that much about marketing, you know, but I did know that I could work our way through different or tools around marketing. So I don’t have to have expertise in marketing or whatever it is you’re going to do with somebody, but what I can do is something like on a retreat with a team, I can have them help them design their alliance about how they want the retreat to go and who they want to be while they’re in the retreat and have be if it’s difficult. And so a DTA goes with anything any company ever wants to do, or a family wants to do. Then we did a Metaskills Wheel – we had them brainstorm all the different qualities a great marketer had. A great marketer was curious about the client, a great marketer genuinely wanted to serve, a great marketer blah, blah, blah, you know. So they generated the values of being a great marketer. We didn’t have to do that. I didn’t have to know what a great marketer was. They did. I could take those qualities and pop them into a Metaskills Wheel and have them deepen their own. You know – which aspects of being a great marketer were they particularly good at? Which ones did they feel like they weren’t so good at? It could have been marketing. It could have been HR practices. It could have been future planning for the company. It could have been how a new couple wants to be in their marriage when they marry. It doesn’t matter what the topic is. ORSC is a general operating system with tools to help pull out what’s important or relevant to whatever that area is.

Katie 1:07:17
Well, the title of this podcast, Relationship Matters. I realize there aren’t many schools in life where you focus primarily on relationship. Maybe that’s the unique offering of ORSC. It’s about the relationship first and foremost.

Faith 1:07:33
Absolutely and in the relationship is hidden all kinds of fabulous things. Like what’s really important for the company? Or what is the most troubling thing that happens in a couple during a fight for them? So in the process of talking about any topic relationship … you can’t do anything without being in relationship. End of story. There isn’t anything you can do that doesn’t involve some sort of connection with somebody. And what ORSC does is shine the light on different aspects of relationship relevant to whatever the topic is that they want to talk about. So anything that involves people involves relationship, and anytime you have relationship, you’ve got ORSC tools. In some ways, it’s the ultimate operating system for anything you do.

Katie 1:08:23
Yeah, and it has to be the first one.

Faith: Arrogant that I’d say that, but it’s true.

Katie 1:08:26
No, it is. It should be the first one, because I think, well, a lot of us try and think our way out of problems and into relationships. And what ORSC does is – it takes it into different reality levels, but also it channel switches, and it takes us out of just that one dimension of thinking and maybe into different types of intelligence, deeper intelligences,

Faith 1:08:48
Well, absolutely it looks at intelligences. It also looks at three levels of reality. So I guess if somebody is training me on a computer, that’s pretty consensus reality in the sense of, you know, it’s very operational, measurable, you know, stuff like that. And there’s maybe a little less relationship in that. But even there, if I’m coming to be trained on a on a new program, I’ve got my hopes and fears about it. It’s like, oh, God, I hate, you know, programming stuff, I’m going to be I suck at this, or, wow, I’m going to feel foolish. These people are all better than I am. There’s all of this stuff is going on, even in a very mechanical exchange. Relationship is happening. And we all know if, for example, I’m afraid, we do a lot of work with people around fear about the new project, and if you don’t work with that fear, it sabotages all the time. But if you just work with your hopes and fears or your dreams about it, it’s possible to move past the obstacles and often harness them. So

Speaker 4 1:09:54
I know Einstein said, energy is everything. Would you say relationship is everything to build on that?

Faith 1:10:00
Yeah, that’s great. Yeah, I would say that energy is a subset of relationship.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:05
Interesting. So relationship comes first.

Faith 1:10:08
Well, in this sense, I don’t want to overdo it. Not every relationship is about interaction on an animal level. But if you think of it this way – what are atoms? Atoms are relationships between protons, neutrons, and electrons that either push away or attract, or they do something. I mean, are they conscious and sentient? No. Are they repelling and attracting and being in relationship and moving around and jumping from one to another? Yeah, they are relational. You can’t have a molecule without a bunch of atoms getting together and saying, Okay, we’re going to get together and create this thing that’s the Third Entity of a bunch of atoms in a molecule. You know, I think it was Jonas Salk said that relationship was everything, but on a molecular level, on an atomic level, it’s relational. On the largest possible level, universes, gravity, they are swinging around one another. They are interacting and colliding and destroying each other. They are blowing up, or they are forming out of the ashes of the dead stars becoming new stars. So it’s interactional. Is it relationship motion? No, but it is relational.

Katie 1:11:27
It’s fascinating. It blows my mind. It makes me think that it should be, actually very simple to integrate ORSC, because ORSC is underneath everything, yes. And so it’s not necessarily about putting something on top of another thing. It’s sort of a foundation for everything else.

Faith 1:11:44
Perfect. That’s really well said. So for example, I stopped a long time ago signing on to do strategic planning for teams. I could bring how to set up the groundwork for the best possible strategic planning relationally. But there are other people who know more about the nuts and bolts of the stages of strategic planning than I did. So you need the other nuts and bolts. ORSC is not enough ORSC is the operating system that makes whatever else you put in it run smoothly?

Katie 1:12:25
Thank you for joining us for our first masterclass on ORSC Essentials. If you want to learn more about any of the guests or topics featured in this episode, you will find links to full episodes in the show notes.

Instead of providing any takeaways for our masterclass episodes, we would like to encourage you to think about what you’re walking away with after listening to this masterclass. What is your one key takeaway? Then I would like to encourage you to share this takeaway with someone else. You can share this learning with anyone – a colleague, a friend, a family member. The important thing is that you do because when you teach someone else, you learn twice by leaning into the generative, creative and intelligent power of relationship. As always, a huge thank you for tuning into the Relationship Matters podcast. If you like the podcast, please subscribe and spread the word. Do take a look at the archives for more than 130 podcast episodes, and for more information on the ORSC courses, please visit crrglobal.com.

For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of change makers around the world, supported by a global network of faculty and partners. We connect, inspire and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. We believe relationship matters from humanity to nature to the larger whole.